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Yeah, I think I'm going to need to start collecting Altecs as well. I have a large garage area that will be used for my shop. I need sound out there too. I found a set of 605s w/1600 crossovers for $700 for the pair. I'd have to make cabs. Worth it if they are in NOS condition? 604s just go for stupid money.
alancohen, that is an, um, interesting room layout. Good luck.
Ya think? I can't imagine there can be a lot of stand waves, as much of the LF will be passing me by. We'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoHeretic
That fireplace in the middle of all the rooms is Brilliant. I've had the same design in my mind for years. You can heat the whole place with a couple of logs a night. Very smart grab on your part. Can't wait to see it all setup. :) If you put the Listening position in front of the fireplace you could put the 101's up on that next tier behind the fireplace and then you wouldn't need risers or tilt them back.
I think your proposed set up (with your listening position behind the fireplace) will work fine as long as you remedy some of the potential acoustic issues of the room (sliding glass door, cathedral ceiling, etc.). As you mentioned, much of the sound will pass by you with the open layout design of that room--so that part of your setup is a definite plus. I'd definitely take an open design like that over a small "boxed in" room which (untreated) will have sound bouncing/echoing all over the place especially when you turn up the volume a little.....Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
I never really planned on collecting Altecs--it just kind of happened. I've always used Altecs for my band's sound systems, and have always had a pair of Altecs for my home stereo since high school. Most recently I bought a pair of Model 19's for my (finished basement) man cave (811b horns, 416 woofers, 802-8g h.f. drivers--very similar to what you now own thanks to your recent GPA purchase). They sounded so great I bought another pair for my home recording studio (finished basement--the big room). Also own a pair of Santana II's in the recording studio for comparative listening of band mixes. I wanted something that was similar quality to the 19's for my living room (but not too large) so I ended up with a pair of Model 14's which fit the bill nicely. So, I'm up to three Altec systems in my house and couldn't be happier. I would be hard pressed to buy any speakers other than vintage Altecs--I'm hooked....Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
I think I'm going to squirrel away some nuts and berries for a pair of 604-8H-IIIs from Bill. I can build my own cabs. They'd make a nice shop speaker. I do spend lots of time out there.
I want a set for the bedroom as well. I probably don't have room for a 15" driver cab. Maybe a 12". If the bi-amping experiment does not work out, I'll have a pair of 1W 300B OTL monoblocks without a home. I thought a bedroom system, where the volume would normally be very low, would be perfect for them. Didn't Altec make a 12" Duplex too? Like you, I'm hooked on horns.
I'll bet those GPA 604-8H-III's sound phenomenal--they've even got (the modern version of) Tangerines. To answer your question, yes, Altec made multiple 12" duplexes. Most of them were lower quality (IMHO) ceiling speakers, but they did make the 601's which were nice hi-fi/studio monitor speakers. They pop up once in a while on craigslist and Ebay etc. Here are a couple of links.....Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...20Speakers.pdf
2 Vintage Altec 601C Speakers in Barzilay Walnut Cabinets N 3000 E Crossovers | eBay
They also made the 601-8D which wasn't as good IIRC.....
http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...%20Speaker.pdf
GPA also makes a 12" duplex with a single magnet which I haven't heard but doesn't seem to have the extended bandwidth I'd want. I really don't know much about the 212-8A's though....
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/212_8A.pdf
I HATE MOVING!
Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast....
Anyone have any thoughts as to the effect the old burlap sacks, I mean, grills are having on the sound?
I have mine in a 2.1 home theater set up but wonder how much better they would sound with a modern, acoustically transparent, grill.
Pain to remove though as the whole speaker would have to be disassembled...
Great dynamics and power but I doubt they will ever "disappear".
Sectoral horns can be fairly directional. The heavily twined burlap might serve to break that up a bit. I put a cheap plastic grille in front of my TangBand full range speakers and it did just that. The "sweet spot" widened more than a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by cbb
I think making them disappear will be more a function of the room than anything else. You can make almost any speaker image better by careful placement, acoustic treatment and seating position.
Still alive. Still moving...
The end is in sight, but the unpacking and subsequent organizating is daunting. I finally found a good reason for a wife. Anyone know where I can rent one for a few weeks? I'm hoping to be done by Spring.
But I did manage to get a make shift system set up. Just the 15W OTL, preamp, Heathkits and Pandora from my cablebox. As the space is filling up, the sound is getting better. With the volume on 1 it fills this large space with sound. I still need window and sliding door treatments, but so far I am very happy. The sound doesn't suck, as a matter of fact it is quite good. I still need to get the bass right and limit the first reflections, but I'm hopeful I can get it working right.
Unfortunately, I do not have a dedicated room for audio and will have to make compromises in order to be able to live in the space as well as listen to music.
Update: Most of the passive XO system is set up as it was before. No time to fool with the Behringer and bi-amping yet.
But the news is: My oldest son (17) is a bit of a thespian. I am not a musical fan in the least. As a matter of fact my tendency is to cringe when the singing starts.
But my son's participation has coaxed my into the theater to see every performance he has ever done and who da thunk it, but I'm converted. He suggested we go see Les Miz, The Movie and of course I went. I have never seen it before and as a matter of fact haven't been on Broadway since Grease in the 70s. I was surprised that it is more an opera than a musical. As I'm typing this I am streaming the soundtrack from Pandora, through my Mac Mini, Dragonfly DAC and 15W OTL on my Heathkits and enjoying it immensely. Of course the sound is astounding, but I'm actually enjoying show tunes for the first time in my life.
Help!!
Thanks for the updates Alan .Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
- I never saw mentioned ( maybe I just lost track ), but did you ever install both of those GPA 802G drivers ? If so, how did you get them to fit ?
- What developments have occurred to date with your passives ? ( ie; are these currently new builds, just 30923 pads or are you running the stock networks as you found them ) ?
Glad you're enjoying those AS101's .
:)
I installed the 802s with the backs not as tight as they could be. It's only about 1/4" off. When I get more time I'll rout out a recess in the back panel or add some build-up strips to the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl K
Crossovers are still the originals w/new caps and old L-pads still in the circuit. Rebuilding them is "on the list".
Since I got this house, my to-do list has grown exponentially. I can't see my life getting to the point where I can sit down and relax with nothing to do for at least 10 years.
Alan,
Did installing the 802s restore the ( triangle or something ?? ) that you mentioned was missing ( within a particular musical piece ) when you first heard the 806s ?
:)
So I finally got my vinyl front end installed, and yes, the chime is definately more pronounced and forward. Before it was muted and farther back.
They still don't "sparkle" with 18K+ highs, but they sound more lively that the 806As. I wouldn't call it night and day, the 806As were pretty good too. These are a cut above though.
Sounds like you need proper CD horn EQ to tonally flatten them out to as high as practical.
GM
Maybe...I'm not convince that a flat response is the be all and end all. I have a pair of 8" full-range speakers that are dead flat from like 60 to 20K and they sound...well...flat compared to these.
I'll be bi-amping them soon through a Behringer 2496 and I'll see what I can do with that. I'll be able to control the attenuation, XO freq. &XO slope. I want to listen to it for a while as is so I can get a frame of reference inbedded in my ears.
How do you get 60-20 kHz flat with a single driver without mass quantities of EQ that will likely 'suck the life out' of it?
Regardless, tonally flattening out a woofer/horn through the XO BW, then using a by-pass cap to let the highs through unattenuated won't make them either 'dead' flat or sound flat in mine and many others experience. Basically, you're just using passive components to mimic the effect of driving them with a very high output impedance once the proper shelving has been applied.
As to how much usable HF extension you can get will depend a lot on the grill cloth density.
GM
Hi GM,
I know Alan has moved house ( & is now quite busy with everything that implies ) and ( HiFi wise ) is generally just digging his tube driven ( modernized ) Valencias .
FWIW, earlier in this thread Alan built up a 30923 HF contour network, ( at least partly on my encouragement ) .
AFAIK, Alan has yet to test it with his GPA 802s. I figure he'll get around to that at some point ( assuming his curiosity gets the better of him ) .
Alan ?
:)
Thanks for that reply .Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
Sometime in the future you might want to use your existing test setup ( & maybe some virtual EQ ) to help narrow down the range ( that you believe "sparkle" comes from ) .
Then that knowledge can be applied to a building an "effective" RC compensation network for your 802s .
This is another way of saying , I doubt you need flat, extended response all the way out to 18K , to be exposed to sparkle .
:)
Earl: I've been exposed to some pretty cool electrostatics as well as high end tweeters over the years that really shine. What I mean by shine (or sparkle) is the ultra highs seem to just dangle in the air for extended periods of time instead of just making their presence known and fading quickly into oblivion.
That said, I'm convinced there are endless trade-offs in the audiophile world. I would not trade what these speakers give me in realism and presence for a little extra sustain in the upper frequency range. I am completely seduced by HF compression drivers and what they can do with the human voice and a saxaphone. I am very satisfied and, if I do nothing else with my system, can be completely happy just listening to what I have.
Greets!Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl K
Ah! OK, missed this in a quick scan, though the old grill cloth density may ideally need different component specs. Of course, it's a good starting point for 'voicing'.
GM
Ooops, I misses this post, Earl. Yes, I still have the 30923 modules, just haven't installed them yet. There is so much that needs to be done first. I need to find the best place for the Heathkits and the sub for proper bass response. I find that even a few inches foward or back or a few degrees of twist right to left can make a difference in a 60Hz peak or suckout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl K
I also have to buy some area rugs since everything is on hardwood floors now as well as window treatments since I have bare windows and sliding doors right in the first reflection points. So there is much to do and buy before I get this really start measuring and getting things nailed down.
Here's a pic of my current, make-shift set up so far: Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
As you can see...lots to do.
Assuming the recording is accurate [not likely], this requires a flat response out to about 30 kHz, well beyond what all but the most extreme super tweeter horns can do, so typically, significant spiking around a horn's upper limit of 14-15 kHz is employed and sometimes spiking down in the sibilance range ~ an octave below also to further increase the effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
The latter spiking can add too much presence [ringing] to some instruments and even female vocals if already mixed in [very common], especially in a compression horn system that acoustically does this to some extent to every recording, so a 'mixed bag' of trade-offs at best that I could never make work well enough with just one system EQ contour; though judging by some folk?s opinion, some manufacturers have succeeded to some extent with their ?full-range? point source drivers by simply boosting this ~octave with mass quantities of cone break-up modes.
Anyway, experiment in the digital domain since you can and please let us know what, if any, EQ worked for you in your app.
GM
Oh wow! Your basic acoustical nightmare! Ideally, jacking the speakers up is going to be required too, not to mention getting rid of the coffee table, a huge early 1st reflection zone in the worst place possible. Really, long term, you need to use the components in a DIY tower/column [aka MLTL] to overcome many of this room's core problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
GM
I have new cabs on the midterm plan. Not that I don't appreciate the vintage Heathkit look, but...I think I want to separate and dampen the 811s from the 416s ala Model 19s. I am willing to sacrifice vintage for sonic improvement.
Second, here are some more shots of the space empty IMG_1734 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! . Click the "Older" button on top to flip through a few images.
The good news is it sounds reasonably OK. The open space allows the LF waves to stretch out a bit. The fireplace, doors and windows need acoustic treatments as does the cathedral ceiling. I'll build some when I get my shop set up in the garage. Right now it's filled with boxes that need unpacking. My other obtacle is I have a new puppy in the house, so new area rugs are not in the cards for a month or two.
I like the fact that with the volume control on 1 with a 15W/ch amp I get sound filling the entire house. On 3 you have to raise you voice to be heard 5' away.
Now that I have furniture and bookshelves in I don't get much slapback any longer. It looks worse than it sounds.
Oh yeah...and that raised platform the speakers are on, it's hollow underneath!
This brings up a good point. I am at a stage in my listening "career" where I am beyond being impressed by recording engineer/audiophile sonic gimmicks. I do not desire enhanced highs, mids or lows. I do not listen to music for the effect that a system generate other than it's ability to reproduce the sound of a live performance. Playing with the stereo image for it's own sake does nothing for me any longer. Making sounds go up and down, in an out and left and right does not make music sound real to me. Bass that thumps in my chest is cool, but bores and wears me out quickly. I want to hear music the way it would be if I was hearing it live.Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
That sparkle I mention is what I would hear if I was sitting in a small place with a small group playing acoustic instruments and someone dings a chime. I want it to ring in my speakers to the same degree and for the same duration that it would if I were there live. No more and no less.
Around here, you're 'preaching to the choir', but the reality is that they mix music principally for movies, vehicle and ear bud apps, which is anything but life-like and why the future is ever higher resolution, lower distortion digital signal, room correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
GM
alancohen, I pretty much agree with your sentiments in the post prior to GM's above. Most of us are constrained by general 'living' and architectural constraints and have to compromise on perfection and focus on getting as good a sound, that we can live with, as we reasonably can in our circumstances. I am enjoying this thread - may there be more like this on the Forum.
I happen to have these "made for Ovation" Altec VHF drivers and horns in the mail.It is so intersting to play with it.. its gud.
So I'm contemplating a new cabinet for my Heathkit components and looking around for design possibilities. I have no need to reinvent the wheel and was considering something like this:
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2013/01/3.png
It's not unlike what I have now, but the ports are more "tune-able" I think. But I would not mind separating the 811s from the 416s ala the Model 19s. With the 802s I might need more horn depth.
Available components: 416A LF drivers & 811 w/802Gs. Eventually bi-amped with Behringer 2496 active XO. My eventual XO frequency will likely not be far off from the 800Hz where they are now, although I will certainly experiment with delays and slopes.
Or would something more MLTL-like be better? I would like to get the 811s up to seated ear level, but would like to avoid clear-cutting an entire forest to build them. I'd prefer not to have 300# speakers in my LR if I can avoid it.
So would a stonehenge-like tower be better, or something like those 1233 cabs on platforms/legs? Or maybe the 416s low and the 811s on "legs". If I build separate cabs for the 416s and 811s, how far apart vertically can I go before things get weird?
They do not need to be overly sophisticated in appearance, but I would prefer they do not look like and erector set either.
Just thinking out loud.
A few years back I posted a cabinet drawing for a simple model 19 clone. The hosting service sucked and my HD crashed so I don’t have it anymore. If someone has a copy it might work for you. Leave out the slot and tune with standard ports. It will also take a set of M19 foams which are a good idea to use. For the 416-8A the Onken cab is nice but those are huge and heavy. On the plus side since you top mount horns with this box you can swap them out pretty easily and certainly won’t need a sub for music.
I have all the different drawings you sent me or was posted AFAIK, but don't recall if they were all 'finals' though. I still want to [eventually] set up the DIY designs drawing database we had planned.
GM
We could use a good cabinet building thread. been kinda slow around here... As a general rule the perfect cabinet idea will come to you 3/4 of the way through building the first choice you made. :D
Easy ports.
Standard PVC pipe/tube and close-fit flange from plumbing supplier. I used 8-hole mounting and a gasket. Flanges do not need to be recessed into baffle - I did it purely for appearance.
Cut tube to required test length and slip the drilled flange on. I seal the flange to the tube, behind the flange, with masking tape at this stage - one wrap does the job.
If you accurately drill the mounting holes in the flanges(I didn't and cussed myself later) you can reverse mount the flanges and have the tubes on the outside of the panel for easy access when trying-out different length tubes during the tuning process. You will also be able to mount any port to any baffle hole.
When happy with the cabinet tuning the flange to tube joint can be permanently glued with a PVC adhesive that will give you enough time to align the parts before it sets.
If there?s room, I recommend using the M19?s 30? o.d. width x 21? o.d. depth.
Yes, as already noted, tube ports are the way to go if they need to be longer than baffle thickness.
I wouldn?t have recommended the MLTL if I didn?t think it a good option. Don?t know your average seated ear height, but ~38? is common, so adding half the horn recess height + ?? top plate = 43.5? high, ergo using 19 mm BB, Apple or marine grade no-void ply it for sure won?t be light, but nowhere near 300#.
The Stonehenge tower is what we now usually refer to as a MLTL, but from an acoustical POV, not a particularly good one since it retains a BR?s ~ideal vent location, i.e. as close as practical to the driver.
This not only defeats the cab?s TL modes vent damping ability, but also adds a notch in the mid-bass right where you don?t want one and last, but not least, causes some amount of peaking at Fb that when placed near a boundary can color the bass too much, though of course it can be damped down with additional stuffing if need be.
Spacing speakers up off the floor can roll off the bass too much and vertically ?gapping? the woofer/horn can cause audible phasing problems if the listening distance isn?t far away enough for them to sound as one, so best to have them as close together as practical, especially since you?re doing the XOs digitally and don?t have to worry about the delays that passives have.
GM
I built this speaker before discovering the wonderful world of Altec horns. It utilizes an 8" Tang Band full-range driver. I assume you mean this style where the port is separated from the driver. I used a $5 4" port tube from Parts Express an cut it to length to tune.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2013/01/20.jpg
I also saw this on 6 moons 6moons audio reviews: Steph?n's Altec 604 Dream Speaker where he does a similar thing with a 604. I guess I would be mounting my 811 on top. His dimensions are deeper than wide. I think I would go the other direction as you suggest, ~30" wide by ~21" deep which would accommodate the horn better. I'd like to avoid the freakish, appearance-wise.
The speakers I built are 3/4 MDF and weigh quite a bit. I can only imagine what the cab would weigh of the size I would need for the 416s. I think for that reason I would build a separate cab for the 811. Not that I'm planning on moving again soon. But the experience is still very fresh in my memory (arms and back). My current sentiment is to be buried in this house, but who knows?
Since I'm bi-amping w/ active XO, should I be considering an open baffle design?
Not easy to find, but I came across these Thiele small parameters for the 416A:
Model Number: 416A
Xmax (inch): 0.6
Xmax (mm): 15
Re (ohms): 12.54
Fs (Hz) 21.4
Vas (cu. ft.) 36.8
Qts 0.272
Le 2.5
BI 18.01
Cone Dia 12.7
Cms 0.001124
Plugging in to this calculator Speaker Box Enclosure Designer / Calculator I get 10.02ft3 for volume. 6" x 2.57" length port for the 416A.
That would give me a box OD 28" wide, 21" deep and 36" high made from 3/4 MDF with 3/4" battens and leave room on top to get the 811 to ear level.
[QUOTE=alancohen;1845970] His dimensions are deeper than wide.
whose dimensions?